An Honest Death Penalty Conversation
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I decided to write this piece after reading a well written hub, be it one I believe to be misguided, posted by tonymac04; please read http://hubpages.com/hub/Revenge-Reason-and-the-Death-Penalty In advance you should know this isn’t going to be a short post, this subject is much too important to society to casually give it a nod or disapproving glance.
Essentially the anti-death penalty advocates argue over value of all life, evolution of reasoning, and against the purported “spiral of violence.” They state pro-death penalty citizens are not solving any problems associated with murderers, we are enabling revenge, and the end result still does not deter violent crime.
I make no overtures to bridging any differences between these two camps. For all practical purposes of agreeing on one thing, “Justice” has a separate meaning, defined differently and administered disproportionately as by our value system. I am sure to come off as abrasive and dispassionate against those who wish to abolish capital punishment globally. My tone is stern and maybe even a little condescending, but I guarantee you it is nothing as compared to differing professors critiques. Shall we begin?
I wish to invite the audience of anti-capital punishment advocates to paint for me a virtual world where your form of “Justice” is administered with alacrity and high minded reason. Show me how you take an unabashed murderer out of your society and apply to him your human value while equally meeting the need of a consoling family. Oh yeah, you do not get to start your utopian society from scratch, nor can you use AmherstNY, Mission ViejoCA or NewtonMA. Try something a little more real like Detroit, San Francisco or CamdenNJ. Even better, below is a link to a recent triple homicide in New Haven. Please read it and then tell me about your justice.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/14/conn-doctor-takes-witness-stand-murder-trial-wife-daughters/
I am an imperfect being that is not without many a sin, and know that I have to answer to my maker for actions and lack of actions in my life. I have free will and therefore exercise it based on moral values, life experiences, and accumulated wisdom. My judgment of others actions is applied on a sliding scale from jubilant celebration to detestable contempt in need of intervention. Needless to say, my brand of justice is much swifter and less confused with right and wrong. Moreover, in my world, lines are not to be crossed or you will pay with your life.
I will make this portion simple for defining my line; premeditated murder for want of any gain, you’re dead. Manslaughter by DUI with any priors, you are dead. Murder by rape, or even violent rape with the victim still living, you’re dead. Convicted pedophiles of any kind, I would execute you twice. Terrorist…scratch that, unsuccessful terrorist are dead in my world. I am sure those of you who deeply empathize with any of the above are already shaking your fists and staring at your life size poster of John Lennon trying to center your chi. As I stated, I am not trying to change your mind, and you are certainly not going to change mine. I merely covered off on the bulk of offences in which I merit the death penalty unblushingly. Now let’s dive into the nitty gritty.
Seldom, if at all do I see the argument for which I’m about to make; because I believe in Christ our Lord, I do not feel compelled to defend the actions of any groups I mentioned above. Because I cannot judge what is in men’s hearts, only their actions, I feel no responsibility for empathizing with a cold blooded killer. Since I believe in an after life, I lose no sleep in worrying about the death of a murderer; I am more concerned for the grieving family and safety of society. God’s justice in the afterlife is very different from ours, only he can right that wrong under his terms. In our time, you have limited choices so you should make the best of them, and not impede the life of others. Do not misquote that statement, once you are a murderer, you have no more choices, you decided to forfeit your rights in society and gave society the right to do with you as “justice” sees fit.
I do not want to philosophize with the possibility that had Charlie Manson been hugged more, or had a greater sense of self-esteem he wouldn’t have committed those heinous crimes. Or better yet, Charlie Manson sitting in some cell proselytizing to other ‘valuable prisoners’ is proving our society more just and Manson’s life righteous. Forgive me, what value is a rotting murderer adding to society? How would a still alive Ted Bundy enrich our environment and say to the world “we American’s honor the life of homicidal maniacs, but not those of the meek and innocent?” Can you logically answer that or is this another one of those self congratulatory “feel good” moments where sparing the life of someone who didn’t murder your family is honorable? To those who do forgive their loved ones killer or rapist, I hold you in high regard; however, I am still going to remove that individual from the pool of life to protect the rest of society’s hard working, law abiding citizens.
There are some thing’s that were enduring about the way old school justice was meted out. If you wronged a neighbor you had to do something in return to make it right. Today we have insurance policies. If you have a stolen item, it is returned or you are compensated. If you are involved in a not at fault auto accident, their insurance compensates you and tries to make you whole again. You can sue in court for wrong doing or libel. In the military there are stated grievances. But what sort of justice is given to the family of the murdered? What kind of assurance is available to the family of the slain? I will never understand why making sure the perpetrator can never do this again to anyone again, be it in prison or in society is such a foreign concept to those who claim to value life. To me, it says you value the life of the victim and victim’s family less than you do that of the convict.
Since I know this is only the beginning of this dialogue, I will save some subjects for later. Be honest, tell me your justice, not that of any outside pressure left or right of the scales. Thank you.
Out of necessity, I have the optimistic viewpoint holding to the possibilities of grace, forgiveness, justice and peace of mind. [addendum added 4/07/12]
1. Grace; we handle those harmed with exceptional tenderness. The condemned need not anything beyond what due process is owed and innocent until proven guilty. No need for brutalization tactics, no need for draconian treatments.
2. Forgiveness; the family of those whom have had a loved one taken from them, they have full leverage to offer forgiveness to the convicted and condemned. This process belongs to the victims not the state.
3. Justice; conviction of murder without a shadow of doubt should remain clear and concise, forfeiture of citizens’ rights and revocation of the pursuit of happiness. Isolation from all persons and places until sentence is carried out.
4. Peace of mind; this comes to the families of the victim and society as a whole. This is achieved via the removal of the convicted from society permanently. Thus doing so ensures that individual can never harm another living person on this planet, ever, so help me God.
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Hi pcoach,
Thanks for the nice comments. I understand that the irrefutable evidence trips up many individuals who would otherwise support capital punishment. I was saving what I’m about to say for a similar argument, but it applies here as well.
This is a tough concept for most modern citizens to buy but I am guided by a simpler dictate. We regularly send off innocent young men and women to combat for the sole purpose of winning an engagement or ending a regime. We send these young adults knowing full well some are not going to return. We regularly put to death honorable sons, daughters, wives, husbands and so on. Now you are going to say that is different…I say it isn’t…Both are systems of defense.
Our justice system is supposed to be a defense mechanism to “protect” the populace. What is our military if not a wider more sophisticated branch designed to “protect” the populace? Anti-death penalty advocates always play the “one innocent’s death” isn’t worth a whole system of punishment. If you really were to believe that then we might as well eliminate our entire armed forces, disband them and say thanks for your service, we do not believe in losing one of you excellent citizens for the better of society. Are you following me now? In my world, I would be a hypocrite to throw away a justice system because one innocent died while we are trying to keep society safe, but in the next line send thousands of innocent, devoted patriots to their death abroad.
Would you call all of those wonderfully potential lives lost at D-day a mistake? They helped keep America safe. I will go one further, someone in the wrong place, at the wrong time is going to get caught up in the system, they unfortunately died so that the rest of society can function and we do not tear down the walls of what has kept us sane so far. If newer technology comes along to make this fool proof, then there should be more coming to my side of the argument. Anti-death penalty advocates never cry to eliminate the justice system when a murderer goes free because they can buy the courtroom. In my world he would be dead.
Sorry for the really long reply, hope this helps you understand more of where I come from. Must be an Arizona thing…
Clark University Professor Michael Pakaluk "If no crime deserves the death penalty, then it is hard to see why it was fitting that Christ be put to death for our sins…."
Jason: I was "once upon a time" one of those "innocent" people sent off to war. It was a conscious choice. I was not drafted though many I knew were. I volunteered. I was not scooped up off the street to be blamed for something I didn't do and then die for it. You are welcome to your opinion but in my considerable years, it should tell you something when I say that up until a few years ago, I DID believe in the death penalty and now I do not. It was Christ's conscious choice as well. I have a feeling if YOU were the person who was wrongfully convicted, you would be singing a different tune, and LOUDLY. And your family would be out in the public stirring up what I would hope would be holy hell. And let me tell you right up front, I put absolutely NO STOCK whatsoever in the words of college profs. Our colleges are spewing nothing but a bunch of liberal Idiots. You are among the few who are the exception in case you hadn't noticed. And you've seen what those college educations are doing for us right now on Capitol hill.
I guess what I'm trying to say is do not group me among those bleeding hearts because I eat bleeding hearts for breakfast. I have no doubt that you and I share most views except this one and I will put my years of life and experience on the table to say more errors are made in courts than most anyone could possibly believe and for that reason alone, I no longer agree with the death penalty UNLESS THERE IS IRREFUTABLE PROOF!
Pcoach,
I get what you are saying. You might have misunderstood my “innocent” reference to our military men and women, that’s my fault for not clarifying it with a pin point. When I label our fighting men and women as “innocent” I am merely referencing that they were law abiding, good citizens who have taken up the patriotic cause, I did not mean to elude to any Leftist diatribe hurled at them as if they (and you) were mindless apes strapped to rockets unknowingly. No Bambi reference in this fight…hope I cleared up that little stinker.
You may very well be right if I were the one looking out over the crowed as I am marched up the scaffold. I guess all I can say in this is I hope I wouldn’t dishonor God and implode like a weak-kneed pacifist. (Ooh, I am going to ketch hell for that one)
Question, being that you state the irrefutable evidence position again, can I assume that this “suspect” is still sitting on his duff, growing mold and draining resources until conclusive intent is found?
By all means, keep challenging me pcoach, your wisdom might wear me down as the years pass. Or…you and I are going to share a guillotine in the new one world order.
Well, let's hope we won't be sharing the guillotine! And you're right. You will catch hell for that one - weak-kneed pacifist. You probably need to throw an "idiot" in there somewhere and then it would be just fine! Back to topic, prison is a joke. Cable TV, internet access, getting degrees, it's bullpuckey. Prison is supposed to be a place you don't want to go back to, not a flippin' spa. Prison in "my world" would have no ears for bleeding heart liberals who are worried about whether or not some murderer or rapist's rights were violated. I don't mean that we should be abusive (I'm using that word very very loosely), but prison should more closely resemble Leavenworth where it is truly hard time. Not this pussy crap our states call prison.
Does that get you any closer to my end of this delightful topic!? By the way, I voted you up and useful. Beautiful didn't seem appropriate!
I think I see, Jason, you're saying that if attrition is an inevitable consequence for fighting for the cause of protection from outside enemies then why shouldn't it be acceptable for protection from inside enemies. And you're even saying that you would not cry out if you too, became one of the necessary collateral? That is dedication to a cause! The only problem I see with that is a government that actually formally and publicly 'assassinates' good Americans like you with the jury's blessing, and when it's discovered to be misleading evidence, the government can apologize and say well it was for the cause of a safe homefront. All the while you and your family honorably accepted it. Maybe that is an overactive imagination, I appreciate the reader's patience in the face of my ignorance. If we can agree on anything, prison should be more stark and unforgiving.
pcoach, I've heard similar things about college professors, I merely liked the truth backing the title, not the title backing the truth, and I try to give credit where it's due. Speaking of which thank you for serving our country.
It's too bad that most of the youth is unconcerned like I am sometimes. We are the government, and that is a concept that is becoming distant and so I think the reality of it is becoming lost too.
Isreal cleaned up their country fairly well, though extreme as it was. Their solution to "innocent" murderers was a city that they could flee to, but were not to exit until the relatives of that man died, because they could, and would, kill you on sight. Let's not forget the next life will be eternally better, or eternally worse, and God will rule out complete justice. Sin does not go unanswered for and so the only way we can be confident of heaven is to accept Someone's substitution for us. This acceptance brings a transformation of the heart that must be evident or it will not count. May god richly bless you both, brothers, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Bryant: I am guessing you are a father or brother, some family member. I do understand where you both are coming from, and appreciate the "vollies" back and forth, but we will agree to disagree on this topic. I know we will agree on many more. Get writing!!!!
I am proud to say that I am Jason Manning's younger brother. Alright, I might. Thank you for your encouragement.
Good luck to you both!
Mr. Manning, if justice cannot be served - that is - if there's not penalty severe enough to compensate for the death of a loved one - then how can it be said that the death penalty is the proper punishment for those who have taken a life?
Is it not better to try and seek a method which at least keeps criminals - murderers - from killing again? If so, why feed into the "emotional response" about certain criminal acts - why not life imprisonment, no chance of parole, rehabilitation ANYWAY within the prison and still no chance of parole - and once or IF rehabilitated, lifers must do a manual labour (instead of just sitting around in the prison "schedule") of some sort that contributes to society?
I would rather see some sort of life-long compensation attempt that contributes to society in some way than death penalty - since the death of a criminal doesn't really compensate for the victim's death or loss to the family of the victim of murderers.
Hi Mythbuster,
Thanks for stopping in to read my hub.
To dive right into your argument about some sort of compensation or I would like to call atonement, if it would actually be acceptable to those in society who would complain of it resembling servitude, I would prefer this method. I would welcome hardened convicts being forced to work at a field of expertise they were good at in order to pay for their own up keep, and serve some good to society while never having the chance to touch freedom again. I am open to changing my stance on this path alone.
I am still unsure how I feel about violent murdering rapists though. The highly intelligent sociopaths could still create a happy place within their psyche, thus mentally defeating the system. Breathing is too good for that one group. I would offer a change of mind if you could guarantee the former.
Pcoach; sorry man, I like where you were going with your line of thought, but I know it would never happen either, the shortest distance between two eyes is a bullet.
Mr. Manning, if your point about "Breathing is too good, etc" is about serving you and your emotional tendencies toward vengeance, then how does the same actually serve society, the family of the victims? Unless you have personally been in the immediate family that has been victimized and gain your strong emotional response from being one of the victimized, how does your viewpoint serve society and the victimized family...based on YOUR anger and fear?
Are you aware that many of the family members of a murdered person have attended executions of the murderer - only to report that the satisfaction regarding the death of the murder was extremely short-lived and later on, these same family members felt that the execution didn't solve any problem at all? Many people in these situations actually experience grief, guilt and shame after the death of the executed criminal - on top of the loss of the loved one.
Hi Mythbuster, I do not deviate from my earlier comments, I said them and I meant them. A dead murderer can no longer harm the victim’s family or society. An alive murder can create disciples and in the sickest of cases, groupies. As far as fear goes, I am not sure what context you are applying that to. If you want to apply it in the sense of murderers having a chance to roam free because of a pathetic judicial system, one that allows weak minded review boards the opportunity to weep tears of sympathy for hardened murderer’s tough up bringing, then yes I am fearful in that respect.
As far as personal family situations parallel to this, they are not open to debate or discussion. I will be waiting for God’s justice.
Are you telling me that you pay no attention to recidivism rates? Do you know how many child molesters get out on good behavior only to strike again? Is this an okay part of the process for you? So what if there are more victims by the same criminal, but lets not ever put them to death, right? I hope not… Sorry Mythbuster, I am not going to budge, I was explicit in my opinion on what I consider justice for particular groups of humanity. You we’re close to getting me to compromise in one area, but you quickly retracted that from me, deciding to go back to what my opinion is, versus finding common ground. I can meet you in the middle if it makes sense, but that does not change my emotional appeal or feelings toward this subject. You are fishing for something that does not exist in my lexicon; sympathy for hardcore criminals. I am okay if you believe I am a whack job who is no better than the criminal; but I guarantee you would rather have me as a neighbor versus them.
Thank you for keeping the conversation going.
I think the only one I don't feel warrants the death penalty is the DUI even with a prior. My reasoning is, they are not malicious, they are not trying to do harm, they are just very very sick or very very dumb! I mostly agree with you though.
Hi A_M, thank you for taking the time to read this. Many feel the same way you do about manslaughter caused by DUI. While sickness is a serious issue, being dumb cannot be an excuse for manslaughter. There are still decisions involved long before alcohol touches ones lips. Recently we lost a young police officer here in Phoenix to a drunk illegal who was so intoxicated, he stumbled out of his vehicle to urinate on the pavement while the office lay bleeding to death in the street. I do not wish to sound so hard on you, but how exactly would you explain to the young widow and parents of this officer it was only a dumb accident? I would send this criminal to meet his maker on the fastest bus available.
Thank you for your interest in this subject.
Stopping repeat offenders doesn't happen by the few killers society and the law will kill by via executions, in my opinion. Keeping criminals behind bars and changing a ridiculous law about "good behavior" is probably the best way to ensure that fewer people are harmed by repeat offenders, as far as I can tell.
In what way are you fit to be judging what happens with the life or death of others?
Myself, I'm not fit to say that someone should die - for any reason - but I have no qualms about saying someone should be kept away from the public who is a violent offender.
I think many executions are a justification for the public to vent and see someone die when the public is in a fearful, angry state.
Jason - this is a powerful rant. One with which I am in total and sad disagreement.
You say you believe in Jesus and can't judge what is in men's hearts, only their actions. So I would ask you, how do you explain the anger and hate that you have expressed here, and square it with the words of the one whom you say you believe in, as found in Matthew 5: 21 and 22?
I do agree that sending people off to war is morally very similar to the death penalty, and that is why I am a "weak-kneed pacifist" - though I think pacifism might take a lot more courage than going to war, if the truth be known! I am not a dogmatic pacifist. I think that there are times when the threat of violence might be necessary - perhaps Hitler could have been stopped if the Allies had taken a firmer stand sooner. But that is speculation.
I am not in favour of abortion either, for the very same reason. Though this is not as clear-cut as some would have us believe. And I totally oppose the killing of those who perform abortions.
To be pro-life is not a simple thing. It demands that we think very carefully about what life is and how to preserve and protect it.
To take one life in order to protect other lives seems to me to be taking on too much responsibility. The one life is real, the other lives are speculation.
So I come back to my central argument - that the only possible justification for the death penalty is revenge - and then we have to ask ourselves is revenge a noble and good motive?
To take revenge is to entrench the cycle of violence - because each time I take revenge the other person (or their family) will want to take revenge on me - and so it will go on until someone has the courage, the sheer raw guts, to say "Enough!"
So I say that the death penalty will always create more problems than it solves. Every murder creates victims. Every execution creates victims. Who is so pure, so without sin, as to be able to judge between the victims?
Certainly I would not presume to do so.
Thanks for continuing the debate that I started!
Love and peace
Tony
Hi Tony,
Thanks for stopping by and contributing. I do not want to sound out of step with your theology, but I was under the assumption from your hub I read, that you are not a follower of Christ. In keeping with the notion that you do not follow Christ, nothing I say or you say about God is relevant to how you feel on this subject. Are you not just trying to use my own religion to quiet my internal inferno for murderers?
See, I believe in God’s grace, and God’s wrath. God gave us his divine word through written scripture, written through earthly men. These scriptures are sacred laws, covenants, and anecdotes. My little brother was more intelligent than all of us when he brought up the fact the most innocent person on earth died by crucifixion. The crucifixion of Christ was necessary for our sins to be purged, and obviously a statement that goes beyond words. God didn’t have to let this stand, but it was an ultimate lesson.
Those of you who are disagreeing with me didn’t read what I wrote carefully. Tony, you pick up on it, but you still misinterpreted my words. If I spit on you in public, that is an action that you are obligated to react to. You would be reacting to an action but have no clue of the motives of the heart. This is simplistic yes, but that is how simple I think this is. God wiped out an entire population on earth with one exception, we all interpret justice differently.
Let me ask you this, what would happen currently to an assassin of Royalty or Presidents? Is this justice suited to the crime?
Correct me if I am wrong about your theology Tony, I do not want to detract from the debate. Thanks.
Hi Mythbuster,
Like I stated in my hub, I am not without sin, never implied it, and would never be so foolish to. Having said that, I would have no qualms about being the one to pull the lever on Saddam, Osama, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or any prolific serial killer. Why would you want these guys alive? They don’t care about you, or are they going to grow a conscience. If they cannot repent or feel sorrow, what then? Help me out.
Your arguments lead to fallacy, Mr. Manning. Appeal to emotion all over the place - these do not lead to proofs for your points or to evidence that your viewpoints are valid - they only rile people up who are afraid already. These sorts of arguments are extremely dangerous.
Hello Mythbuster,
Sorry fella, once again you are ignoring my challenges. I cannot debate vague rhetorical illusions of “fear.” Secondly, you never once addressed my requesting you to explain how your ideal justice system works. It is really simple, you have a triple homicide criminal in your possession, what do you do with him, how do you keep society safe, and how do you sustain overloaded jails?
Thanks for keeping the conversation going.
Mr. Manning I will get to the questions and comments you refer to as soon as I am properly back online with my regular computer.
As for the question of the triple homicide and keeping society safe...wouldnt lifetime incarceration without parole keep the criminal from committing crime on the streets and in the general public communities... Overloaded jails ARE NOT a problem solved by executing criminals since there are far too many executions (thank goodness) happening now to make a dent in prison population numbers. If executions were to be effective they would have to be mass executions somewhat like the world witnessed via the Holocaust.
Hello Mythbuster, thanks for coming back. You and I are circling around the same known outcome. Your wish and difference with my logic is you cannot guarantee me or society that a homicidal maniac will never be let loose once incarcerated. My suggestion unequivocally guarantees that no rational, law abiding citizen will ever come to harm by said homicidal maniac again. On this premise you have no leg to stand on, and to rub salt in this wound I will invoke the beloved poster boy of Massachusetts justice; Willie Horton a convicted murderer in the first degree who struck again while let out on furlough. Now Mr. Mythbuster, I am not so calloused as to imply you ever approve of a furlough program for convicted murderers and rapists, I will let you correct me if I am wrong.
As for your second equivocation about putting death row inmates to actual death being akin to the Nazi created Holocaust, well, sir this is a shameful comparison and there isn’t anything remotely comparable in this discussion between you and me. 10 million innocent Jews and Christians slaughtered never has a basis for likening the execution of murderers, you sadden me with this metaphor.
Mr. Manning, I am sorry to have saddened you with a certain comparison. It was you who added the metaphorical reference. My mistake in not providing a clearer picture. I should have been more clear in that I was meaning a mass execution "in function and execution for getting rid of convicted murderers" and not in motives... ie: sheer numbers that would need to be efficiently executed according to your estimation of so many convicted killers needing to be kept away from society by a permanent, non-negotiable methods.
This is a nice hub Jason. I agree with death penalty only if we are positive. I don't agree with if the person is just suspect with no proof.
Neverletitgo - Thank you sir, finally some one who sees a clear line in the sand and makes sense. If we have doubt, we do not execute, if there is irrefutable evidence that said person committed the crime – hang them high for all to see. I appreciate your clear condor and contribution. I will be writing a different version of this hub in response to thin skinned moralists equivocating.
Thank you, God Bless.
Why don't you all leave poor ole Charlie alone???
Freebird, I will happily leave Charlie alone when I am no longer in this world. Evil will be hunted down, called out and displayed for its impropriety. Thank you for taking the time to read this and leave me a note.
Jason. I WANt to firmly state I agree with you 100%....and I would, but I can't. Not until there is NOT and never again will be ONE single INNOCENT man or woman on death row. or WORSE, executed. and there have been hundreds. We know this for fact. Not speculation or rumor!
My expertise now, if you will allow. Until 12 years ago, I could have easily been the author of your hub.
For the past dozen years, I have been seriously involved and fiercely active in The Innocense Project. This is 11 and a half more years than any rational, fair and honest human being need be involved to know that UNLESS AND UNTIL WE CAN GUARANTEE THAT NOT ONE INNOCENT IS PUT TO DEATH..or merely incarcerated on death row for 20 plus years of their life.....we have no choice (in good conscience) to put the Death Penalty on "pause."
Over-zealous (crooked) cops, totally egregious prosecutorial misconduct, sloppy detective work, "back room deals with inmates" witness tampering, FORCED confessions, sloppy evidence procedures, erroneous eye-witnesses...disinterested public defenders..the list goes on and on. I am sorry to say, it is all too real. I have written but a few hubs in this regard. My future holds several more.
I truly respect your position. I ask that you at the very least, try to comprehend my current stand.
No, it is not my mission to change your mind. I understand why you feel as you do. I WAS you.
I simply cannot hold fast again...I repeat, unless and until.
Thank you.
Hello Fpherj48, I fully appreciate what it is you state and I can understand your position. My stance in not for lack of seeing the truth in what you’ve said, I have no doubt’s that innocent men and women have been killed by capital punishment. Every single day, innocent men and women are put to death by tyrannical regimes. Every single day, good men and women are brutalized, beaten, raped, ravaged, tortured, and much worse is done to little children.
I would suppose it is impossible for those whom hold the opposite view as mine to understand how I say what I do. Drug dealers kill children every day with the crap they peddle. Rapists in poor neighborhoods exploit lousy public defense and terrorize innocent women. Who is standing up for the murdered? Who is going to ensure justice for the raped? Say what you will, OJ bought his way out, rich individuals do it all the time. Look at the case of Andrew Luster the cosmetic heir, he should have fried like a chicken at Colonel Sanders birthday party. Let me say this differently if I can; you spend your time fighting the worthy effort to save those whom do not deserve their punishments. I totally applaud that as the only reasonable position. Having said that my efforts are reserved for the guilty receiving their just deserts. Nothing can assuage me from wanting murderers dead, and rapists should receive “special” treatment.
Thank you for the context of your comments, and I wish your mission the best of fruit.
Jason....Excellent response. Logical, realistic and totally acceptable. I believe in your plight. If only our judicial system would make the efforts and take the vital steps in assuring us that every individual of every position will be held accountable for fact, truth and transparency, to the fullest extent of the law.....we could all relax and be confident that the evil are extinguished and the innocent protected.
Am I foolishly supposing a Perfect World? Only where it matters most. The rest of it can remain screwed up, just for the hell of it. Thank you, Jason.
You are an exquisite writer, btw.
Hi Fpherj48, I like how you slipped that last compliment in, [blushing] thank you. It is natural for us to dream of a better society, without waxing too philosophical; wishing for a perfect environment where everyone is decent to one another, I believe would destroy an integral part of our human nature. But, let’s leave that for future hubs…thank you for coming back to conversation. You have sparked an addendum I wish to add to the end of my hub, so therefore I will post it here in my response and go back to edit the original hub. Thank you for the challenge and the additional perspective you gave me.
Out of necessity, I have the optimistic viewpoint holding to the possibilities of grace, forgiveness, justice and peace of mind.
1. Grace; we handle those harmed with exceptional tenderness. The condemned need not anything beyond what due process is owed and innocent until proven guilty. No need for brutalization tactics, no need for draconian treatments.
2. Forgiveness; the family of those whom have had a loved one taken from them, they have full leverage to offer forgiveness to the convicted and condemned. This process belongs to the victims not the state.
3. Justice; conviction of murder without a shadow of doubt should remain clear and concise, forfeiture of citizens’ rights and revocation of the pursuit of happiness. Isolation from all persons and places until sentence is carried out.
4. Peace of mind; this comes to the families of the victim and society as a whole. This is achieved via the removal of the convicted from society permanently. Thus doing so ensures that individual can never harm another living person on this planet, ever, so help me God.
W O W. Sometimes, only one word is needed....often, it's the one word that says it all..........
AMEN.
Well despite my Christian beliefs - I'm going to leave that out of it.
Instead I'd rather look at statistics and studies. I don't have to bust out the stats of all the former death row inmates that have been exonerated - everyone has been made aware of just how many once were waiting for a needle and have since been set free. It is very easy and proper to then assume that there is a horrific and unknown number of persons who've died in penal systems at the hands of an executioner that were innocent.
Google "New York's Last Executioner" - there should be a story about the last man to have that job in the state of New York - there are other victims of the death penalty, and one of them is the executioner.
Here in Texas what happened with Cameron Todd Willingham is so pathetic that it boggles the mind, and our idiot governor and the seemingly retarded arson investigator in Corsicana, Texas - still hold they did the right thing.
...amazing.
But all this is merely the over use of the death penalty - despite what my Christian leanings might say, when we look at someone like Theodore Robert Bundy! Oh My! What a brilliant mind the man had, and if anyone were able to escape death row and murder a whole new slew of young women, then it would have been him. Ted Bundy is the monkey wrench that seems to prove that there is some sort of good reason for having the death penalty - and please nobody say escape is impossible. Human failures and imperfect human systems - are what humanity is all about.
Wes, the rabbit hole ventures deeper still. Excellent comments my friend, but I would caution you against holding back, especially in terms of distinguishing between moral right and wrong. It appears I cannot evoke an image strong enough to offer my condolences of those innocents snuffed by the machine. We are part of the machine, make no mistake Wes. We grease the machine, we ply the machine with our tax dollars, and we are supposed to discourage or encourage the machine to do our bidding. You know full and well how much we both agree the machine in total is broken. Nevertheless, we as society require the working parts of the machine to continue momentum until a better replacement can be had or found. The opposite of this is complete and utter chaos. I am not emotionally or psychologically prepared for the contingency plan, but if that is answer, so be it, God help us all.
Hi Jason, I found you through fpher's hub...
I too am a HUGE supporter of the death penalty. Unfortunately, it seems to be something that Americans are becoming less and less favorable toward and one can only assume it is because of the recent string of DNA proving wrongful convictions.
Even I have had moments of doubts and I had to redefine WHEN I believe the death penalty is appropriate. I'm not sure how to explain it other than give examples. So, let me say, Ted Bundy was an excellent candidate for the death penalty; Darlie Routier, not so much - too many unanswered questions and police misconduct.
Some here have argued that Christ died for our sins, including murderers and it is not man's place to decide a man should die for his crimes. While I respect their beliefs, I strongly disagree because several times throughout the Bible man is instructed to obey the laws of man. One of the laws of the land is the death penalty. When they commit the crime, they are (or should be) well aware of the consequences which are LAW.
And, as I stated in a comment on fpher's hub, for some of these murderers, the fame they receive while in prison gives them what they always wanted: fame. Is not the ultimate punishment to deprive them of joy just as they did their victims?
In my opinion, THAT is justice.
Hi Kim, thank you for jumping on over to my wagon. It’s nice to meet another who hasn’t abandoned the hope for true justice. I fully agree with your statement regarding notoriety and fame. There isn’t enough hub space to describe the chasm between how you and I believe the Accused should be treated versus how others wish them to be treated. Some want every basic comfort and kindness paid to the convicted in light of their deeds. Anyways, thanks for the comments, I am glad to make your acquaintance.
Oh boy, Jason, if you got my started on how I think prisons should be operated, we'd be here all day.
I once took on a British man Sean Attwood, who illegally overstayed his VISA in America then began funneling in drugs to this country while getting "tight" with violent gangs like the M-13s. He wrote a whole book of whining about his time in Sheriff Joe Arapios (sp?) jail. He admits he was as guilty as sin but was appalled at the conditions. I was SO ANGRY I could have spit nails!
I do understand there are innocent people in prison. I really do. And I know that it is the probability of that alone is why many want prisons to be good (for lack of a better time) places and no capital punishment. But while I respect their opinion, I'll never be on board with it because (1) the number is of true innocent of the crime convicted is very small and (2) Usually the one innocent of the crime for which they are serving, isn't much of an innocent at all - if you know what I mean.
Whew, rant over. Thanks, Jason, for letting me get all that off my chest. :)
Jason - "right and wrong."
Okay, if someone were to have caught Ted B. in the act of something and killed him...very few would state or believe it were "wrong" to have done so. I definitely would never say it is "wrong" to kill someone you caught in or just after the act of killing an innocent.
But what about the executioner? It can't be "right" in my opinion to cold bloodedly kill someone ten years after a crime as punishment. I'd imagine a horrific psychological toll were it my job to "insert the needle," or "pull the lever," - as it used to be.
I'd like to see and read a lot more about the lives of executioners - but from independent authors or journalist...definitely not some damned state agency!
Here is the article I wanted to show you:
Wesman, Ted was essentially caught in the act. After his grand finale in Florida at the Chi Omega sorority house, Ted fled the scene and many area residents, although unable to identify him by name, describe the bloody mess he was. As did survivor Cheryl Thomas, which was attacked after the sorority girls.
I agree with you that ten years after the fact is too much. I'd prefer we do it like the old days: one year you're convicted, by the next year you're forgotten. But, realizing we do have innocent people in prison, ten or fifteen or even twenty years is the method we must use, for all in fairness, and so it is what it is.
The way executions are done, there is a panel of death administrators but only one will be the "lethal one." And since the death panel doesn't know if their's is THE ONE or not, it's an easing of conscience, so to speak. Of course, it takes a strong person to even be on a death panel so....
A book you may be interested in is DEATH AT MIDNIGHT. You can get it Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Death-At-Midnight-Confession It's more personal propaganda in my opinion than it is "truth," but that's just my opinion but it would give you what the personal view vs. state proclamation that you mentioned.
Well you've seemingly proved why the death penalty is unethical and shouldn't be used.
If we were to kill a Ted Bundy right away - that is one thing, but so often we've killed people that were only minor Ted Bundy types...and other times because we waited ten years or more, turned out to be innocent persons that we thought were Ted Bundy types.
So by killing someone right away we forfeit our humanity by killing more innocents.
Nothing is consistent in this world except for human fail-ability.
Also, I did read "The Stranger Beside Me," fascinating book!
Wes, here is an honest “I have no idea moment.” I can empathize (and I hate that term) with executioners who have deep regret, mortal sadness and a hollowed out feeling that they have somehow betrayed their fellow man. Since I cannot put my money where my mouth is and say give me the gun I will shoot Ted, Jeffery, Gacy, Saddam, and Osama in the head, but, I wish and pray I have the ability to follow through on my stance. That is all I can offer you. Yes, if I caught someone physically assaulting my wife or daughter, Lord help them and give me grace.
You make an interesting point regarding a 10-20 year time lapse to execute a sentence, yet it shouldn’t matter, if the prisoner is isolated from society and in no place to effect another, then what is the point of keeping them alive? Hopefully they took the time to find Jesus and we send them on their way to meet him. I know that is calloused of me, but I have run out of metaphors, and analogies.
Well that is exactly the point!!!!
Lets say I grew up in some rogue family, and killed someone (or several) at a young age...then in prison picked up the ubiquitous Bible and read on - got it, absorbed it, and it changed my life - well, where is forgiveness?
Wes, you are forgetting an integral part to this…please pay close attention…the murdered do not have a chance to forgive, that’s why it is God who gives forgiveness.
Yes, but God expects forgiveness out of us - and capital punishment is in-congruent with that, but of course all human systems are universally flawed.
How do the dead forgive?
Wesman, I have a real issue with the "finding religion" in Jail bit. I've always said, "If you're looking for Jesus, don't bother with church. He's ALWAYS at the jail!"
I can't count the number of times inmates have found Jesus only to lose him when set free. Those who are in there for life and/or facing death, I sincerely hope they have found God - and it doesn't even have to be God as I believe, just the goodness of such.
But, would they truly have it if set free? And since the Bible clearly says we must obey the laws of the land, is facing their death sentence not part of their newfound faith? I believe it is. It's not about expecting OTHERS to forgive you, it's about your CREATOR forgiving you. WE didn't make any claims. SOCIETY isn't responsible for YOUR salvation.
Bottom line is this - if you TAKE a life, be prepared to GIVE your life. You manned up (and that applies to gal killers too) and killed someone, so you better take it like a man when they stick that needle in your arm. Otherwise you're a pathetic, sniveling, panty-waisted loser who can't handle it when the tables are turned.
Maybe I'm a cold-hearted "B" but I'm pretty sure I could pull or flip the switch on any of those monsters like Charles, Teddy, and Osama and never give it a second thought. I'm certain I'm with Jason in that, if anyone EVER messes with my family, I've got plenty of guns and I know how to use them and will spit on them when I'm done.
Have is ever occurred to you, and I mean you in general, that crime rates were a lot lower when pioneer justice was in play? Criminals knew if they played they paid. *sigh* If only...
"the Bible says we must obey the laws of the land" - that is Paul who said that, and it is in Romans.
Paul was executed by the Romans...for breaking the law.
Christianity is based on the notion that everyone makes mistakes and needs atonement for those mistakes.
There have been studies that show that after an execution is carried out - violent crime INCREASES in the are. I believe this is because execution of an inmate is a violent act, and people tend to follow their government as it is an example of "leadership" in any given society.
Really, I don't want to get into a discussion of Christianity because well, I'll disappoint my Pentecostal Mama with what I have to say. But I will venture this far: I believe Christianity and other religions are a form of tyranny who control followers with threats of damnation for bad behavior and rewards for good behavior but yet none agree 100% on what is good or bad.
But that is a whole other hub (or several in a series) for another day.
Violent crime increases in the area. Hmmm, proof that people are animals with a higher ranking on the food change because we have the ability to reason. So, in my opinion, if things become more violent then maybe it's a sign to thin the herd of the ones who can't control themselves.
I mean, really, if someone says, "Hmmm, I'm going to be violent because my government was (which is idiotic considering killers die in a much nicer manner than their victims)" then they deserve to be put down like the rabid animal they are.
Again, this goes back to my mantra on PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY - something I do view as straight up black or white.
Well of course it doesn't work like that - you've not got a lot of control over your subconscious mind, you know......
Maybe not, but you do have the ability to control your actions.
What would you think if I showed you a CIA document that described how that isn't true?
Wes, what are you talking about? You cannot compare a soldier of fortune with a fully subversive super soldier, trained Jason Borne style. Are you going to present a document to me that proves the CIA can and will make me do anything they say at a moment’s notice without any prior interaction with me? Poppycock!
Show it to me, Wes. And can you explain how you came to be in possession of such a valuable CIA document? A document that could create MASS problems if reported?
Well, it can be done. "They" can make you hallucinate what they want you to hallucinate.
I get some interesting things from time to time :;
In other words - everything you hear - isn't always what it was cracked up to be. Any time you have a "official explanation" for something - the only wise thing to do is to question it, doubt it, and look at other explanations.
I might send you some stuff, Jason!!!!! I've got loads of stuff you might find very interesting!!!!!!!!!
Let me know here - and I'll pick something juicy out for you to have a look at!!! I think most of the stuff is in Word format.
you've got my email buddy...send it.
Coming Your Way!
pcoach Level 3 Commenter 20 months ago
I came across your hub via RightBlack's pages. I'm so glad I did. You know, I had exactly your point of view and to a great extent, I still do. BUT, and it's a big but but it is a but(!), what if they were innocent? I have spent my years believing that the death penalty is the best thing. But what happens when we are wrong? With the introduction of DNA and the exonoration of innocent people, I can't get behind the death penalty anymore UNLESS there is irrefutable proof. I have spent my life working with lawyers and the courts, and it was only in the last 5 years that I finally had to admit to myself that UNLESS WE CAN BE POSITIVE, it is wrong to put someone to death only to be found 2, 5, 10, 20 years later that the court was wrong. The death of someone's innocent loved one is simply way too much to bare. I don't know the answer but I know we have to do something. I absolutely do believe in the death penalty, and I do not believe in murderers/rapists and such being held in prison indefinitely, on our dime no less, but the margin of error is simply not acceptable.
Wonderful hub!